Politics, News and Current Events (2,857 views)
juggernautpunch
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Post by juggernautpunch on Mar 25, 2018 13:48:54 GMT
The thread for discussing heavier topics, like news, politics, economics, etc.
Try to keep it civil!
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juggernautpunch
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Post by juggernautpunch on Mar 25, 2018 14:08:58 GMT
To continue the discussion that was going on over at Harry's, I feel like blaming the Trump electoral victory on Russia and solely on Russia:
a) Perpetuates negative Cold War-era propaganda about a nefarious and hostile Russia - Obviously, foreign involvement in rigging or manipulating elections is unacceptable, and I'm not trying to defend Russia as some kind of innocent wonderland, but I feel like building up Russia as some kind of bastion of evil not only hinders any potential reapproachment, but also leads to rampant scapegoating and paranoia. Here in Sweden, Russia has always been the bad guy, going back centuries. Any unexplained occurance, any general disturbance, any conspiracy is pretty much immediately linked to Russia, whether it makes sense to do so or not. Russia is always painted as the supreme threat, and it poisons people's minds. It's not healthy, and it distracts from other legitimate concerns. Protests and legitimate concerns against Sweden's military build-up, co-operation with NATO and reinstatement of conscription is being dismissed by statements like "We need to be ready for a russian invasion". I also agree with what SDA was talking about, that it's supremely hypocrticical of U.S. politicians to point the finger at Russia for potentially interfering in their election when the U.S. has a long and storied history of interfering through everything from propaganda campaigns, election rigging, support for military coups, all the way to outright military invasion.
b) It ignores the legitimate problems in the U.S. that lead to Trump's success - An antiquated and unfair electoral system, non-democratic practices like gerrymandering, corruption among high-up party officials, the inherent weaknesses of a two-party system, white american's attitudes towards changing demographics, globalisation, institutionalized racism, unequal distribution of wealth, etc etc. Intentionally or not, shifting the argument towards Russia helping Trump steal the election implies that the American system is otherwise functional, which it's really not.
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Kaiolino
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Post by Kaiolino on Mar 25, 2018 15:02:44 GMT
Nobody solely blames Trump's victory on Russia. That's a strawman argument used by the right and far left.
Also the anger over the Russia interference is specifically over the collusion of American politicians, not over Russia itself. Everybody is aware they're bad dudes. And just because America's no angel, they should just allowed to be rolled over? That's some nonsense.
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juggernautpunch
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Post by juggernautpunch on Mar 25, 2018 15:22:32 GMT
Nobody solely blames Trump's victory on Russia. That's a strawman argument used by the right and far left. Also the anger over the Russia interference is specifically over the collusion of American politicians, not over Russia itself. Everybody is aware they're bad dudes. And just because America's no angel, they should just allowed to be rolled over? That's some nonsense. Didn't I start my post by saying that I wasn't trying to excuse russian involvement in U.S. politics? I meant to do that. Isn't it obvious that I don't think it's okay for the U.S.' (flawed) democratic system to be overridden by non-democratic outside interference? I just find the irony amusing. I may have been conflating the american anti-Russian discourse with the swedish, where suspicion is solely directed towards russian manipulation of the upcoming election results through hacking, not on collusion with swedish politicians, but I feel like the discourse has been shifting from the idea that the democrats lost the election to the idea that Trump and the russians stole the election, which whether it's true or not, seems to lessen the urgency for fundamental change. Aware that who are bad dudes, the russians or the american politicians?
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Post by Obi-Wan Nenobi on Mar 25, 2018 15:23:31 GMT
Im not following this whole thing very closely but Im prrrrrretty sure Ive seen it presented EXCLUSIVELY as 'Russia cost Hillary Clinton the election' on multiple instances from various sources. Implying having Hillary in the White House woulf have been a good thing for black and brown people in America. Or people in the Middle East. Or poor people. Which lmao.
And to answer ur question, yes why should ppl care and what r they going after with the whole witchunt? Bc if its justice, Id rlly like to see the people of South and Central America and the Middle East get justice first.
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Post by Obi-Wan Nenobi on Mar 25, 2018 16:30:35 GMT
This whole march for our lives thing is kinda going to shit isnt it.
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Post by Obi-Wan Nenobi on Mar 25, 2018 19:15:00 GMT
What could possibly go wrong?
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Kaiolino
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Post by Kaiolino on Mar 25, 2018 21:14:42 GMT
Nobody solely blames Trump's victory on Russia. That's a strawman argument used by the right and far left. Also the anger over the Russia interference is specifically over the collusion of American politicians, not over Russia itself. Everybody is aware they're bad dudes. And just because America's no angel, they should just allowed to be rolled over? That's some nonsense. Didn't I start my post by saying that I wasn't trying to excuse russian involvement in U.S. politics? I meant to do that. Isn't it obvious that I don't think it's okay for the U.S.' (flawed) democratic system to be overridden by non-democratic outside interference? I just find the irony amusing. I may have been conflating the american anti-Russian discourse with the swedish, where suspicion is solely directed towards russian manipulation of the upcoming election results through hacking, not on collusion with swedish politicians, but I feel like the discourse has been shifting from the idea that the democrats lost the election to the idea that Trump and the russians stole the election, which whether it's true or not, seems to lessen the urgency for fundamental change. Aware that who are bad dudes, the russians or the american politicians? The Russian election interference issue in 2016 was essentially "solved" when Mueller charged those people and institutions. Frankly, the Democrats (minus Hillary) have moved on from the election (with a little help from upset election wins) and are now focused on midterm elections. And this is why the Russian thing is going to keep being relevant: the intelligence agencies have said the Russians will be back, but the Trump administration, and by extension congressional Republicans, refuse to do anything to prevent future election tampering. Which makes sense of course, Republicans want to keep filling their pockets and Russia is advantaged by polarization between American citizens and the American-European relationship. Not to mention that they both believe in white ethno-centrism. As I said, it's a fact of life Russia (the bad dudes) do naughty shit. Every Great Power does it, including America. What is unacceptable is welcoming Russian interference for partisan gains. This whole march for our lives thing is kinda going to shit isnt it.
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Post by Obi-Wan Nenobi on Mar 25, 2018 21:52:35 GMT
Gdi I posted the same screenshot twice instead of the one where they ask for more armed police presence in schools.
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Kaiolino
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Post by Kaiolino on Mar 25, 2018 22:12:57 GMT
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Post by Obi-Wan Nenobi on Mar 25, 2018 22:24:57 GMT
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Post by Obi-Wan Nenobi on Mar 25, 2018 22:31:18 GMT
Its so funny considering police shootings made more then 5 more victims than mass shootings committed bu civilians already this year.
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Kaiolino
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Post by Kaiolino on Mar 25, 2018 22:39:49 GMT
SROs don't carry firearms. These kids went to Tallahassee specifically to argue AGAINST more guns on campus. None of the groups that helped organize the March (Moms Demand Action, Everytown) argue for more guns in schools.
Basing an entire 800k+ people movement on a school manifesto is absurd anyway. It's the GVP platform that represents the anti-gun movement.
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Post by Obi-Wan Nenobi on Mar 25, 2018 23:05:18 GMT
More school officers still wouldn't be a solution considering their general inability to prevent attacks in the past + the very real and documented threat they pose to students, notably kids of color and disabled kids.
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juggernautpunch
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Post by juggernautpunch on Mar 26, 2018 14:38:39 GMT
Didn't I start my post by saying that I wasn't trying to excuse russian involvement in U.S. politics? I meant to do that. Isn't it obvious that I don't think it's okay for the U.S.' (flawed) democratic system to be overridden by non-democratic outside interference? I just find the irony amusing. I may have been conflating the american anti-Russian discourse with the swedish, where suspicion is solely directed towards russian manipulation of the upcoming election results through hacking, not on collusion with swedish politicians, but I feel like the discourse has been shifting from the idea that the democrats lost the election to the idea that Trump and the russians stole the election, which whether it's true or not, seems to lessen the urgency for fundamental change. Aware that who are bad dudes, the russians or the american politicians? The Russian election interference issue in 2016 was essentially "solved" when Mueller charged those people and institutions. Frankly, the Democrats (minus Hillary) have moved on from the election (with a little help from upset election wins) and are now focused on midterm elections. And this is why the Russian thing is going to keep being relevant: the intelligence agencies have said the Russians will be back, but the Trump administration, and by extension congressional Republicans, refuse to do anything to prevent future election tampering. Which makes sense of course, Republicans want to keep filling their pockets and Russia is advantaged by polarization between American citizens and the American-European relationship. Not to mention that they both believe in white ethno-centrism. As I said, it's a fact of life Russia (the bad dudes) do naughty shit. Every Great Power does it, including America. What is unacceptable is welcoming Russian interference for partisan gains. This whole march for our lives thing is kinda going to shit isnt it. If you accept that al lthe great powers, including America, does naughty shit, why refer to Russia as "bad dudes"? It's that kind of rhetoric that paints the picture that Russia is ran by Bond villains and that America is somehow the "good guy" in the dichotomy, which doesn't stand to reason.
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